IRC log 2011-11-13

12:35:00 < irukard> After I finish translation I would need a native speaker to review my translation
12:35:41 < o11c> hm, what translation?
12:35:52 < irukard> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/User:Irukard/HSS
12:35:59 < irukard> Skill system proposal
12:36:28 < irukard> "Complex but not complicated" TM
12:37:21 < o11c> okay, I'll look at that, from the perspective of a grammar Nazi who has never played any Final Fantasy game
12:37:50 < irukard> xd
12:38:32 < irukard> I will be translating chapter 1.1.6 :)
12:41:25 < irukard> o11c: but don't fall in love with it :) it's just a draft
12:41:53 < irukard> the major plus of this system are skill overloads
12:42:28 < irukard> it's balancing on the edge of calculated risk
12:43:05 < irukard> it's way more than pressing buttons to execute skills
12:58:26 < irukard> is it possible to change on one wiki page style sheet?
13:09:54 < o11c> irukard: probably - but I'd try to add rather than replace
13:09:59 < o11c> div and span work
13:10:18 < irukard> ok
13:10:21 < o11c> irukard: btw, this doens't make sense "In order to use a spell or skill crystal must be placed on the sphere."
13:11:15 < o11c> also, I don't understand the use of the word "soil"
13:11:16 < irukard> if you want to use a skill or spell which is in crystal, you need have that crystal pluged into the sphere
13:11:57 < irukard> soil = field on the sphere, it's profile
13:12:10 < irukard> maybe ground would be better word
13:14:34 < o11c> something like "slot"?
13:16:08 < o11c> also, "Sphere" does not seem to be a sensible term for the amalgation of the 61 hexagons
13:16:10 < irukard> it's rather type of ground, it's element, etc
13:16:27 < irukard> I know
13:17:20 < irukard> I could not find better name for it
13:17:56 < irukard> 61 Hexagon Crap System sounds a bit odd :P
13:22:03 < o11c> reading over the system as written - it seems rather complicated
13:22:52 < irukard> not from the player point of view
13:23:15 < o11c> eh, yes it does
13:23:45 < o11c> is there only 1 sphere per player ?
13:24:44 < irukard> yep
13:24:57 < irukard> and you start from 1 hexagon tile
13:25:20 < irukard> sphere lv is equivalent to job lv
13:25:41 < irukard> but sphere get's it's EXP only from skills 
13:25:55 < irukard> it's independent form player LV
13:26:02 < irukard> *from
13:27:00 < irukard> Should I call it Hex Spiral System? 
13:27:14 < o11c> yeah, that's better
13:27:54 < o11c> so, I see the next untranslated section is "Crystal on sphere: Injecting/Ejecting"
13:28:07 < o11c> is it expected that the player add/remove crystals frequently?
13:28:22 < o11c> Is it expected that the player have many more crystals than slots to put them in?
13:29:46 < irukard> it's translated already
13:30:32 < irukard> player should avoid removing them
13:30:44 < irukard> 1. it takes time to insert/eject
13:30:57 < irukard> 2. while ejecting the EXP is zeroed to current level
13:31:19 < irukard> it's expected that player may have more crystals than slots
13:31:54 < irukard> however changing them will take some time and scarify some crystals exp
13:33:15 < o11c> I still don't understand why all these exp things are necessary
13:33:54 < irukard> to level up crystal
13:34:58 < o11c> is this related to the table under "Profiling sphere ground"? Does levelling up a crystal increase its size and change its shape? Am I understanding correctly that crystals can take more than one hex?
13:35:14 < irukard> yes
13:36:02 < irukard> higher lv - crystal takes more space, got more power, and a bit different reacts with the sphere
13:37:06 < o11c> so what happens if a crystal levels up and there are other crystals in the new hexes it would cover?
13:37:28 < irukard> LV up is imposible then
13:37:33 < irukard> it's manual acction
13:37:41 < o11c> that seems bad design
13:37:47 < irukard> you have to complete a shape with the blank crystalls
13:38:03 < irukard> and than click on LV UP
13:38:07 < o11c> oh, so they're not growing, they're merging?
13:38:22 < irukard> only crystal and Blank Crystalls
13:38:33 < irukard> Blanks are just mineral base
13:38:43 < irukard> they are not containing any properties 
13:39:01 < o11c> well, that sort of makes sense
13:39:32 < o11c> I think the element system needs changing, though
13:39:47 < irukard> 1st LV = Blank + skill orb / 2nd = 1st LV + 1 blank / etc...
13:40:06 < o11c> to a set of continuums
13:40:13 < irukard> 6th LV = 5th LV + 3 blanks
13:40:25 < o11c> fire/water, earth/air, holy/unholy would be a good set of continuums
13:40:39 < o11c> and the slots in the sphere would gain each of them independently
13:40:41 < irukard> maybe
13:41:16 < irukard> high LV crystals (like 6th and Master) have global resonance
13:41:42 < irukard> they are profiling the whole sphere during usage
13:41:58 < o11c> for a "fire" crystal, it would be oblivious to the earth/air continuum, and the light/dark continuum
13:42:11 < o11c> I think switching crystals should be cheap
13:42:26 < o11c> but because of the continuuum thing, it still forces specialization
13:42:38 < irukard> hmmm...
13:42:48 < irukard> idea is worth consideration 
13:43:44 < o11c> as for levelling up a crystal ... it doesn't seem good that it should disallow previous configuations, simply by virtue of taking up more space ... maybe it should ... hm, no ...
13:44:17 < o11c> also I like the thought of being able to merge a fire crystal with a holy crystal
13:44:26 < irukard> maybe EXP shouln't be zeroed while ejecting crystal
13:44:58 < irukard> merging crystals is a option, but not on sphere - but @ alchemist
13:45:06 < o11c> that makes sense
13:45:13 < irukard> 1.1.13 Merging different crystals
13:46:47 < o11c> we might need to give thought to making sure everybody doesn't just go with fire
13:47:15 < irukard> yep
13:47:31 < irukard> we need fire mobs - immune for fire :P
13:47:56 < o11c> I think there's a major issue with the whole sphere growth thing, though: since it starts in the center, it doesn't allow certain configurations
13:48:15 < o11c> I think if your sphere is big enough, you *should* be able to insert crystals of opposite types
13:48:31 < o11c> despite negative global resonance, they should still be able to have positive local resonance
13:48:33 < irukard> remember that player need time for learning
13:49:01 < irukard> global resonance is only on latest crystal LV
13:49:32 < irukard> if you want you may use water and fire on oposite sites
13:50:02 < irukard> however that will make using VI LV useless
13:50:06 < o11c> but anyway, the problem is that if the player starts with fire crystals in the center ones, they can't realistically put a water in i.e. by moving the fire up and the water down
13:50:21 < irukard> o11c: why fire crystall?
13:50:31 < irukard> that was just an example
13:51:03 < irukard> Player starts without crystals
13:51:05 < o11c> because the bonuses in the continuum for fire/water is applied in the center
13:51:07 < irukard> with 1 tile sphere
13:51:27 < o11c> which is no longer where you place your fire, and works against your water
13:51:47 < o11c> (you should never be allowed to put opposing crystals touching each other)
13:52:15 < o11c> I think this problem should be solved by controlling the growth direction of the sphere
13:52:20 < irukard> the sphere ground requirement prevents this
13:52:51 < irukard> 1st LV does not have any req.
13:53:10 < irukard> 2nd LV need 1stLV element under 
13:53:16 < o11c> e.g., you start with your fire crystals in the center, but as you grow, you somehow move the continuum bonus to the top
13:53:16 < irukard> on the sphere ground
13:55:58 < irukard> oh well, maybe I will finish my translation first, then we discuss the major issues
13:56:22 < irukard> I see some potentials flows in system
13:56:36 < irukard> especially with the element section - which is borrowed from TMW
13:56:49 < irukard> and I do not like the sub-element idea
13:57:12 < o11c> I think it would be sufficient to all the player to choose the direction of sphere growth, with a couple of conditions:
13:57:23 < o11c> 1. you can't create something long and skinny
13:57:38 < o11c> 2. you must place the new slot touching as many previous slots as possible
13:57:57 < o11c> so, looking under "Hex Sphere":
13:57:57 < irukard> Re 1 - Player wouldn't do such a thing because the growth of crystal would be imposible
13:58:03 < irukard> 2. Reasonable
13:58:26 < o11c> if you had placed 1-6 as shown, the you would have to place 7 as shown
13:58:57 < o11c> but you coule place 8 in any of the 6 positions, and 9 adjacent to 8 or in any of the other 5
13:59:15 < o11c> re 1: I'm thinking of later stages of the game
13:59:55 < o11c> you should be disallowed to create something 3 hexes tall (enough for any crystal) but 20 hexes long
14:00:34 < irukard> Sphere is only 9 hex long
14:00:57 < o11c> well, that get flexible with player-controlled growth
14:01:18 < irukard> maybe we should stick with 61 hexagons and allow for completely freedom in unlocking the hexes?
14:01:42 < o11c> that still has the disadvantage of starting at the center hex
14:02:13 < irukard> You may start wherever you like then :P
14:02:19 < irukard> ... or not
14:02:37 < irukard> I like the spiral
14:02:57 < o11c> I don't think a starting player will know enough about what crystals they will acquire, to plot long-term growth
14:03:00 < irukard> it's a kind of riddle which make player think twice
14:03:13 < o11c> I like the spiral too, but it's going to mess up the bonuses
14:03:35 < irukard> starting player do not need skills
14:03:54 < irukard> starting player should learn in academy on tutorial island :P
14:03:55 < o11c> without skills it is impossible to level up the sphere?
14:04:02 < irukard> yes
14:04:07 < o11c> so at some point, they start using the sphere
14:04:14 < o11c> that is what I mean by "starting player"
14:04:16 < irukard> sphere levels only via using skills
14:04:40 < irukard> you start using your sphere after getting first crystal
14:04:51 < irukard> it may be a prize in quest or so
14:04:59 < o11c> well, nonblank crystal ...
14:05:05 < irukard> yes
14:05:12 < irukard> skill orb + BS
14:05:42 < irukard> *BC
14:06:40 < o11c> I don't understand the section "Rebirth of crystal"
14:06:59 < irukard> After you got crystal on LV6
14:07:24 < irukard> and you gain enough exp - you will get Master LV and new crystal in inventory
14:07:38 < irukard> old crystal rises to MASTER
14:07:47 < irukard> and you will get additional one
14:08:01 < irukard> with Player Independent path
14:08:07 < irukard> you may sell it
14:08:17 < irukard> or merge with another one
14:08:27 < o11c> what exactly is "Master LV" ? And, this would be the only time a crystal appears out of nowhere instead of requiring a blank to merge?
14:08:29 < irukard> or give it to a n00b player
14:08:40 < irukard> yes
14:08:56 < irukard> Master means - your development has been compleated
14:09:09 < irukard> it has LV VI properties 
14:09:23 < irukard> but no longer needs EXP
14:09:49 < o11c> can such a crystal be used to give the sphere EXP though?
14:09:52 < irukard> and you get prize for Mastering crystal - the new one
14:10:13 < irukard> crystal EXP and sphere EXP are two different things
14:10:48 < irukard> Master crystal doesn not learn anymore, however sphere still does
14:10:54 < o11c> it might be better to grant the player a Skill Orb instead, so they have to bind it to a Blank Crystal themselves
14:11:07 < irukard> oh...
14:11:11 < irukard> nice idea
14:11:21 < irukard> why I didn't thought about it XD
14:11:34 < o11c> anyway, I think I see a major problem with the way crystals level up
14:11:42 < irukard> yes?
14:12:03 < o11c> so a level 1 crystal takes 1 hex, and requires a 0 on the continuum scale
14:12:13 < irukard> yep
14:12:25 < o11c> a level 2 crystal takes 2 hexes and on each requires 1 on the continuum sclae
14:12:35 < irukard> yes.
14:13:04 < o11c> this will make it impossible to level the crystal under many circumstances
14:13:06 < irukard> you may need eject it and insert in different hex (thats why we should not zero EXP)
14:13:15 < o11c> right ...
14:13:25 < irukard> I see it now
14:14:20 < irukard> hmmm... so maybe delay in injecting and ejecting crystals is also stupid idea
14:14:39 < o11c> it seems wrong that it should be possible to max out the crystal before being able to make the continuum levels right
14:14:50 < irukard> this way it would be more fun, having many crystals and composing a sphere according to situation
14:15:02 < salmondine> irikard it fits the back story/history very well, would this system use the 4 beginning elements or the 8 advanced elements?
14:15:02 < o11c> so I think it would be better, for a level 2 crystal to only require a 1 in the continuum for *one* of the hexes
14:15:20 < o11c> salmondine: I suggest replacing "elements" with "continuums"
14:15:36 < o11c> at least when dealing with crystals
14:15:54 < irukard> sounds reasonable
14:16:02 < o11c> in this arena, there is no concept of elemental weaknesses
14:16:05 < o11c> only oppositions
14:16:38 < irukard> seems easier
14:16:46 < o11c> in fact, "elemental weaknesses" should not be builtin, but manual
14:17:02 < irukard> *simplier
14:17:03 < o11c> i.e.: each attack has one or more elements,
14:17:04 < salmondine> okay we change the backstory a little then  =]
14:17:37 < o11c> and each monster has a percent applied to various elements
14:17:48 < irukard> we would have 3 Axis then
14:17:58 < o11c> so a fire mob would be 0% affected by fire attacks, but 800% affected by water attacks
14:18:09 < irukard> fire/water air/earth light/dark
14:18:27 < o11c> maybe also something like ... astral/physical ?
14:18:30 < irukard> maybe 300% but I got idea
14:18:44 < irukard> not too many?
14:18:54 < o11c> most attacks would have multiple elements
14:19:03 < irukard> hmmm
14:19:08 < o11c> to prevent nerfing water attacks too much, they would be somewhat physical
14:19:19 < irukard> they are working independently?
14:19:26 < o11c> but e.g. against that fire mob, it would be 0% affected by the impact part
14:20:31 < irukard> anyway, o11c do you see any potential in this system?
14:20:35 < o11c> definitely
14:20:43 < irukard> or we should stay with no skill system at all XD
14:20:49 < o11c> we need to de-stupidify the client though
14:21:00 < irukard> indeed
14:21:05 < o11c> it needs to be able to generate arbitrarily complex dialogs
14:21:15 < o11c> not just "inventory", "npc dialog", etc
14:21:21 < irukard> XD
14:22:00 < o11c> actually, I think maybe we should partially scratch the idea of continuums
14:22:10 < o11c> and state *only* in terms of oppositions
14:22:14 < irukard> I like it
14:22:41 < o11c> so a level 1 fire crystal would first have to decrease the water bonus, before increasing the fire one
14:22:43 < irukard> I hope mana serv will handle this XD
14:23:09 < o11c> who said anything about manaserv? :P
14:23:33 < irukard> do you want to support it under eAthena?
14:23:46 < o11c> I'm actuall planning on taking the majority of the combat system out of C++ and into a new scripting language
14:23:48 < irukard> it's kind of madness
14:24:12 < o11c> it won't be eAthena anymore, but I understand what I have to do to make it happen
14:24:20 < irukard> "new scripting language" is?
14:24:31 < o11c> lithp, of course
14:24:53 < o11c> I'm writing my own
14:25:28 < irukard> oh.
14:25:57 < o11c> it started simple: "I want to use S-expressions for my data structure"
14:26:16 < irukard> it's good point for start
14:26:22 < o11c> before I knew it, I discovered I needed a bunch of things like macros, and parse-time evaluation
14:27:01 < irukard> Lisp got those
14:28:34 < irukard> oh what the hell, you are mad and you know it :P
14:28:48 < o11c> I've never doubted it
14:29:12 < o11c> I need a lot of custom things though, so I don't feel good about taking some existing lisp implementation
14:29:22 < irukard> ok
14:29:28 < o11c> besides, I need to *know* the code
14:29:49 < irukard> why don't you use manaserv as base for it?
14:30:07 < irukard> manaserv is rather modular bitch :)
14:30:09 < salmondine> write the manual as you go ok o11c?
14:30:12 < o11c> I've got the C++ code to manipulate it half done, but keep getting distracted by the thought of I/O
14:30:29 < o11c> I'm not convinced anyone who worked on manaserv knew what they were doing
14:30:47 < irukard> o11c: that's sad but true
14:30:53 < o11c> whereas I know somebody who worked on what eventually becmae eAthena knew stuff
14:31:14 < o11c> I can't find any history of the MUD time, though
14:31:21 < salmondine> because our hacked eathena never had a comprehensive maunual and that has hurt develpoment more than any other single thing
14:31:49 < irukard> salmondine: I supose there will be no manual at all XD
14:31:55 < o11c> salmondine: why write a manual when you can just enter a shell and type: (help)
14:32:00 < o11c> :P
14:32:15 < irukard> o11c: indeed
14:32:36 < salmondine> man pages manual whatever
14:32:57 < o11c> I need to make all servers accept ladmin, not just the login server
14:33:12 < o11c> I need to implement fd-passing
14:33:19 < o11c> I need to drop windows support
14:33:49 < irukard> file descryptors passing?
14:34:09 < o11c> basically my socket loop will do a recvmsg, and handle the list of file descriptors separately from the normal bytes
14:34:21 < irukard> ok
14:34:46 < o11c> then the parser will get a packet "you got a file descriptor", which will also supply any previous data that was read into the buffer from it in the other program
14:35:26 < irukard> I don't see potential benefits 
14:35:35 < irukard> but maybe I don't have to
14:36:42 < o11c> well, it would be useful not only for administration, but also for the development of plugins/friendly bots
14:36:54 < o11c> and, if the client is smart enough, it would help it, too
14:37:30 < irukard> i still don't see it XD
14:37:34 < irukard> whatever.
14:37:42 < irukard> right now I have to go sleep
14:37:47 < o11c> I'm going to need something like XON/XOFF to prevent the inability to parse packets ...
14:38:16 < o11c> or maybe just implement that dynamic packet proposal I've been talking about
14:38:19 < irukard> I will finish my translation ASAP, correct some language mistakes and remove ridiculous requirements
14:38:22 < o11c> yeah, that would be the smart thing
14:39:08 < irukard> the game with HSS would be not the same game anymore I gues
14:39:53 < o11c> (I was replying to myself btw)
14:40:18 < irukard> ok.
14:40:23 < irukard> cyah
14:40:28 -!- irukard [~irukard@platinum-A35499F3.siec.idealan.pl] has left #tmw-dev []
14:41:43 < o11c> also we really need a client-side script interpreter
14:49:30 < o11c> but my next priority should by writing my own deque that can be used with iovec