IRC log of the meeting:

21:14 -!- Pajarico [n=Unknow@86.Red-83-44-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #tmwart
21:14 <@MrLindeijer> Whee.
21:14 < Pajarico> hi
21:14 < Pajarico> Did you start?
21:14 <@MrLindeijer> Well that's two artists and the artist leader, so I think we can start.
21:14 < Pajarico> as you like :)
21:15 <@MrLindeijer> There will be no ElvenProgrammer this evening so Rotonen should lead.
21:16 < Pajarico> start, then
21:16 <@MrLindeijer> Maybe Rotonen went away for a while.
21:16 <@Rotonen> yeah
21:17 <@Rotonen> i'm here now
21:17 <@Rotonen> so Pajarico whassup? :)
21:17 <@Rotonen> the observatory interior: too modern
21:17 <@MrLindeijer> What's too modern about it?
21:17 < Pajarico> Rotonen, you don't have a way to campare
21:18 <@Rotonen> a lightbulb and such
21:18 < Pajarico> *compare
21:18 <@Rotonen> looks like 50's technology to me :)
21:18 < Pajarico> ok, you are right on that ;)
21:18 < Pajarico> let me explain
21:18 < Pajarico> I just wanted to included a lamp
21:18 < Pajarico> a electric lamp is bad idea
21:18 < Pajarico> but it can be changed for
21:18 < m[a]tt> try a mana lamp
21:19 < Pajarico> a gas lamp or a petrol lamp
21:19 <@Rotonen> but the main point is that it resembles existing stuff too much
21:19 <@Rotonen> i'd like it to be more... alien
21:19 < Pajarico> Rotonen, if you don't like the lampo, no prob really
21:19 <@Rotonen> it's not about the lamp
21:19 < Pajarico> but don't avoid the entire drawing :)
21:19 <@Rotonen> but about chalkboards, general stuff
21:20 <@Rotonen> those are things that exist :)
21:20 <@Rotonen> surpass that, be creative ^^
21:20 < Pajarico> chalkboards are for taking notes
21:20 <@MrLindeijer> I think chalkboard is ok, there's no alternative to such things.
21:20 < Pajarico> what would you put instead?
21:20 < Modanung_> Clay tablets
21:20 < Modanung_> :P
21:21 <@Rotonen> and the greatest point in that: nitpicking the details of interiors at this point is nice, but i think there is more stuff outside yet to be defined
21:21 <@Rotonen> "magical wood/stone", whatever :)
21:21 < Pajarico> Rotonen, you talked first abouti it:p
21:21 <@Rotonen> to be honest, haven't really paid any thought to interiors yet, but i got this massive rejecting feeling about the 50's feel of it
21:22 <@Rotonen> cannot hold my thought together right now due to a slight fever
21:23 < Pajarico> so is anything you like?
21:23 <@MrLindeijer> So I guess we need to think more about observatory from Roman times.
21:24 <@Rotonen> dig up the shot for me?
21:24 <@Rotonen> i'd say 1500's is enough
21:24 < Pajarico> I still thinking that it's not too modern
21:24 < Pajarico> those are technologies easily developed
21:25 < Pajarico> and we already said that the city was prosperous once
21:25 <@Rotonen> true
21:25 <@Rotonen> so technological degradation?
21:25 < Pajarico> so they could have all that technology
21:25 < Pajarico> Rotonen, maybe
21:25 <@Rotonen> we're approaching steampunk if we take that road :)
21:25 <@Rotonen> not by much, but by a bit
21:25 < Pajarico> obsolet but still usable by the teachers and students
21:25 < Modanung_> I agree with m[a]tt we could have a mana-fueled light source in a science-based enviroment like an observatory
21:26 <@Rotonen> indeed, i'm after more alien approaches
21:26 < Pajarico> Rotonen, steampunk?
21:26 < m[a]tt> i thought about something like "and the mana godness gave us this light"
21:26 <@Rotonen> it'd be cruel if the light was a little fairy creature captured within a cage
21:26 < Pajarico> Isn't mana green?
21:26 <@Rotonen> so everyone could make their own lamps
21:26 < m[a]tt> Pajarico: well mana ist the censored us version of gods
21:27 < m[a]tt> or something like that
21:27 < Modanung_> Pajarico: That's radioactive waste you're thinking about
21:27 <@MrLindeijer> Actually light fairies are a great idea. :P
21:27 <@Rotonen> it'd be a kind of a peter pan gag
21:27 < Modanung_> Yea... blegh
21:27 < Modanung_> No human-formed fairies
21:27 < Pajarico> so youlike it or you don't like it? :p
21:28 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: not going to have those
21:28 <@MrLindeijer> Ok fireflies in a pot then.
21:28 < Modanung_> Hehe
21:28 <@Rotonen> something organic for lights, definitely
21:28 < Pajarico> Rotonen, a chemical mix?
21:28 < Modanung_> I love the fireflies nailed to the wall in Alice :)
21:28 <@Rotonen> too technical, imo
21:28 < Pajarico> Rotonen, why too technical?
21:29 <@Rotonen> i think in this world the people have had no need to develop an understanding of chemistry or physics
21:29 <@Rotonen> since they have magic available
21:29 <@Rotonen> which has been the universal solution for them
21:30 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Then they wouldn't have weapons either
21:30 <@Rotonen> the ultimate swiss knife
21:30 < Pajarico> my idea is a city with science studies
21:30 < Pajarico> remember that they don't have
21:30 < Pajarico> water, or very little
21:30 <@Rotonen> well i think some technologically biased country should exist
21:30 <@Rotonen> but i don't think it should be this one
21:31 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Directing mana streams costs power, so I don't think they could be used for everything.
21:31 <@Rotonen> could be alone with my opinion, though
21:31 <@MrLindeijer> I don't care as long as both kinds of cities exist. :P
21:31 < Pajarico> and they had to develop a way to grow plants and predict rains
21:31 <@Rotonen> which reminds me: we have no idea about how the entire world is going to be like
21:31 < Pajarico> that explains the chemical and the observatory
21:32 <@MrLindeijer> If this is too modern for Tulimshar, then I guess save up the concept for a technological more advanced observatory later.
21:32 <@Rotonen> we definitely should have a grasp of the world
21:32 < Modanung_> Yup
21:32 <@MrLindeijer> True.
21:32 <@MrLindeijer> There's two world layouts I think at the moment, based on a series of mana temples.
21:32 <@Rotonen> how about a think-tank about the things we want to have in the world and then start to place them on a map?
21:32 < Modanung_> ME ME ME ME ME
21:32 < Modanung_> :P
21:33 <@Rotonen> but paj has a point about the tech in tulimshar
21:33 < Pajarico> when i think about "a technified city" i'm not thinking about tulimshar either
21:33 <@MrLindeijer> I want a statue of me somewhere.
21:33 < Pajarico> they just have mediums to survive
21:33 <@Rotonen> MrLindeijer: i wonder how our pixellators see you :)
21:33 <@MrLindeijer> :P
21:34 < Modanung_> MrLindeijer: I'll draw you with a beard
21:34 <@MrLindeijer> Well as long as it's me. :P
21:34 <@Rotonen> i was kinda afraid that Modanung would be the one :)
21:34 < Modanung_> I won't do it now
21:34 <@Rotonen> how about the boss herbivore being bjorn? :]
21:34 < Pajarico> thnks for your attention :P
21:35 < Modanung_> Rotonen: He resembles the Lava Giant from SoM :)
21:35 <@MrLindeijer> Ok I'll stop joking, you think about world layout.
21:35 <@Rotonen> indeed
21:35 <@Rotonen> let's concentrate
21:35 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Exactly
21:35 <@Rotonen> i'm kinda out of it right now so you'll have to be the sharp ones around
21:36 <@Rotonen> i'm practically limited to giving opinions
21:36 <@Rotonen> don't have a thermometer here, but the fever is rising since my vision is getting blurry moments :)
21:36 < Modanung_> I have some ideas about nations/regions
21:37 <@Rotonen> so go ahead and present them and we'll oppose/support
21:37 <@Rotonen> if Pajarico is ok with that at the moment
21:37 < Pajarico> so now my opinion matters? :P
21:37 <@Rotonen> well it always matters :D
21:38 <@Rotonen> we just don't have to agree on everything :)
21:38 < Modanung_> I had the idea of the technologically advanced region
21:38 < Modanung_> With high spired cities
21:38 <@Rotonen> don't be too hasty to draw conclusions on my final opinions about stuff
21:38 < Pajarico> Rotonen, yep, but your labor sometimes seems like doing things "your waY", you should take input from artist
21:38 < Modanung_> In a kind of plain-like region
21:39 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: just that i have a strong opinion and a clear vision without the means to produce it myself, leads to frustration :)
21:39 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: sorry, but that aside, what do we put into the forrest?
21:39 <@Rotonen> since we have the desert in some shape and some savannah too
21:39 <@Rotonen> let's start to build the world from there region by region, ok ?
21:40 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Don't you agree the whole world as to be a whole?
21:40 <@Rotonen> i don't get what you're asking..
21:40 < Pajarico> Is the way you say it, Rotonen . Is frustrating to me too to work and always get a no. I get the impression that you are enable to focus on the details and select do you like and what not
21:40 <@Rotonen> let's dig up the map from the wiki now
21:40 < Modanung_> nvm
21:41 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: well it's kinda hard with random things popping in out of nowhere and usually in conflict with each other
21:41 < Modanung_> I think the forrest should have really big cities
21:41 < Pajarico> Rotonen, what things?
21:42 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: all the things
21:42 < Pajarico> Rotonen, what things?
21:42 <@Rotonen> for example i was against the railroad but now we have a railroad in our tileset
21:42 <@Rotonen> etc :)
21:42 < Pajarico> Rotonen, mine was a suggestion, i didn't say anything to anyone
21:42 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Maybe it's better to put the train somewhere else?
21:43 < Pajarico> notmy fault
21:43 <@Rotonen> but i've partially given up on forcing my vision and let it become the common effort and "resultant vector" of our inputs
21:43 <@Rotonen> naw
21:43 <@Rotonen> i'm interested on seeing where this will lead to :)
21:43 <@Rotonen> and if there are trains, there are trainrobberies too
21:43 < Pajarico> "but i've partially given up on forcing my vision" your work is not that
21:43 <@Rotonen> and that's something i've yet to see in an mmorpg
21:44 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: well i'm not 100% sure what my job here is, so right now i'm just trying to help people concentrate AND give my opinions
21:44 < Modanung_> Rotonen: That's what I thought about too when discribing the ship-travelling
21:44 <@Rotonen> my opinions are not the final truth, they're just my opinions :)
21:44 < Pajarico> Rotonen, but you don't act like that, that's the problem
21:44 <@Rotonen> there are too many parallel conversations at the moment for me to concentrate
21:45 <@Rotonen> and i'm getting on the nerves of Pajarico :)
21:45 < Modanung_> Rotonen: I agree... the meeting is too diversive
21:45 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: i've pretty much accepted your vision of the city and culture and social structure of it, right ?
21:46 <@Rotonen> and we're basically disagreeing on the tech level right now?
21:46 <@Rotonen> and i already gave in to your idea about the tech being a prerequisite of the survival on the cursed land
21:46 < Pajarico> Rotonen, read the wiki
21:46 <@Rotonen> or am i missing something? :)
21:47 <@Rotonen> where exactly?
21:47 < Pajarico> I posted suggestions DAYS ago, if not more than a week
21:47 < Pajarico> and i already suggested a advanced observatory
21:47 <@Rotonen> did you post on the forums?
21:47 < Pajarico> no one complains, -well because no one read- and now i get another no
21:48 <@Rotonen> the forums bugged out on me for a few days and i haven't been monitoring the wiki lately
21:48 < Pajarico> Rotonen, that's your job...
21:49 <@Rotonen> i've just grown to trust that everything is appearing on the forums and i think i've been at least moderately active there lately
21:49 <@Rotonen> keep in mind i do not work for tmw, i'm a volunteer and i have a midterm season coming up :)
21:49 < Pajarico> Rotonen, and me not?
21:49 < Pajarico> :P
21:49 < Pajarico> Rotonen, check "recent changes"
21:50 < Pajarico> now and then
21:50 <@Rotonen> on the page, but there are just like n+1 minor chanes to tileset mapping guide etc spam
21:50 < Pajarico> there was already a drawing explaining basically the same
21:50 <@Rotonen> mediawiki is confusing me sometimes :P
21:51 < Pajarico> just checked, no spam
21:51 <@Rotonen> i liked the old wiki better with a clear recent edits page and no extra stuff
21:51 < Pajarico> let's do a thing, let's talking about the world
21:51 <@Rotonen> it was simple enough for me :)
21:51 < Pajarico> and check the wiki someday Rotonen ! :)
21:51 <@Rotonen> where'd we put the map on the wiki?
21:51 <@Rotonen> cannot find it
21:51 <@MrLindeijer> Rotonen: This wiki displays an exclamationmark for stuff you haven't checked out yet, you can mark changes as patrolled as you catch up with tthem.
21:51 <@Rotonen> i'm lost in our own wiki :)
21:52 < Pajarico> read the suggestions and we will discuss it the next day
21:52 < Modanung_> Rotonen: World Development
21:52 <@Rotonen> lines are bouncing around in my eyes :)
21:52 <@MrLindeijer> Ok go to bed or something, heh.
21:52 <@Rotonen> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/images/2/2c/World_sketch_by_Kyokai.jpg
21:52 <@Rotonen> MrLindeijer: not giving up :P
21:53 <@Rotonen> finnish people are known for sisu
21:53 <@Rotonen> http://www.answers.com/sisu
21:53 < Pajarico> Rotonen, http://wiki.themanaworld.org/Suggestions
21:53 < Pajarico> http://wiki.themanaworld.org/Talk:Tulimshar
21:54 < Pajarico> read them and we talk next meeting ;)
21:54 < Pajarico> now, WORLD DEVELOPMENT
21:54 <@MrLindeijer> Ok then show you're Finnish nature and stop making excuses about your situation. :P
21:54 <@MrLindeijer> your*
21:54 < Pajarico> "Finnish nature" XD
21:55 <@Rotonen> so we have the forrest south of the desert
21:55 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: how about tech on that island to the west?
21:55 <@Rotonen> the southern forrest should be a rainforrest, i think
21:55 <@Rotonen> south of that, marsh/swamp
21:56 < Pajarico> Rotonen, just a last question
21:56 <@Rotonen> plains to the east?
21:56 < Pajarico> did you like the "lhambra" approach?
21:56 < Pajarico> alhambra sorry
21:56 <@MrLindeijer> A city of southern California, a residential suburb of Los Angeles. Population: 87,700.
21:56 <@Rotonen> it's pointy and round at the same time
21:56 < Modanung_> Rotonen: I thought we'd do the design per region? :S
21:57 <@Rotonen> i like it :)
21:57 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: coming to it
21:57 < Pajarico> Rotonen, ok, that's something i can work with
21:57 <@Rotonen> perhaps it'd be better if there were separate concentration threads for everything on the forums and we'd just see what we'd come up with? :)
21:57 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: i already thought i commented on that on the forums
21:58 <@Rotonen> could be that they were down and i only intended to do so
21:58 < Pajarico> Rotonen, may be, i haven't see anything
21:58 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Are we going to keep that map?
21:58 < Pajarico> then answer me now
21:58 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: dunno :)
21:58 <@Rotonen> i think just bout any map would be nice
21:58 < Modanung_> *sigh*
21:59 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: i already said i like the idea? :)
21:59 < Pajarico> At this point don't think on the form or placement
21:59 < Pajarico> just in what we want in it
21:59 <@Rotonen> yeah
21:59 < Pajarico> Rotonen, ok :)
21:59 <@Rotonen> so, we have desert
22:00 <@Rotonen> we want savannah
22:00 <@Rotonen> we have forrest
22:00 <@Rotonen> we want jungle
22:00 <@Rotonen> we want plains
22:00 <@Rotonen> we want mountains
22:00 <@Rotonen> we want swamp
22:00 <@Rotonen> what else?
22:00 < Modanung_> And frosty land
22:00 <@Rotonen> true
22:00 < Modanung_> With snow peni
22:01 < Pajarico> savannah between sea and tulimshar?
22:02 < Modanung_> And between desert and forest
22:02 < Pajarico> ok, tulimshar, desert, savannah, forest, sea
22:03 <@Rotonen> dry coastline?
22:03 <@Rotonen> ie. wind blowing mostly from inland
22:03 < Pajarico> even wind blowing the sea is too far
22:03 < Pajarico> i guess
22:03 < Pajarico> a greenish coast
22:04 < Pajarico> with its own regional species
22:04 < Modanung_> Craaabpeople
22:04 <@Rotonen> close to mediterranean vegetation?
22:04 < Modanung_> Rotonen: More alien
22:04 < Pajarico> yep
22:04 <@Rotonen> Modanung_: in concept, not in realization :)
22:04 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Ok :)
22:05 < Pajarico> http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palacebound4nv.png
22:05 < Pajarico> that's the door and wall for the palace
22:05 < Pajarico> a sketch, don't start saying "is not completed!" XD
22:05 <@Rotonen> an interesting door, i like that :)
22:05 <@Rotonen> non-conventional solutions, more of those
22:05 < Pajarico> have to go
22:06 <@Rotonen> yet another non-productive meeting, i suppose :)
22:06 < Modanung_> Pajarico: Somehow the doors don't seem proud
22:06 <@Rotonen> clarified something, but..
22:06 < Modanung_> Like palace doors are supposed to be in my view
22:06 <@Rotonen> i hope that opens to the in
22:06 <@Rotonen> slides in as a whole for a bit and then to the sides :)
22:08 < Modanung_> Pajarico: But maybe it's ok
22:08 < Modanung_> Pajarico: Anyway, bye
22:08 <@Rotonen> i'd need to assign people to sub-director positions
22:09 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Yup
22:09 <@Rotonen> this project has already started to grow "out of my head" :P
22:09 <@Rotonen> doesn't entirely fit in anymore
22:09 <@Rotonen> i'm pretty sure i could leave pajarico in charge of the city
22:10 <@Rotonen> then i'd need someone in charge of the desert
22:10 <@Rotonen> probably iru since it has already progressed kinda far
22:10 <@Rotonen> but he has been busy for a while, though
22:10 < Modanung_> Rotonen: Yes, iru is doing a really nice job on the desert tiles
22:10 <@Rotonen> and i was thinking about herbivores on the savannah, so you might know where this is goig at
22:10 <@Rotonen> going at
22:11 < Modanung_> Rotonen: "Finish the Herbagressor"?
22:11 <@Rotonen> although you're busy too most of the time :)
22:11 <@Rotonen> no
22:11 <@Rotonen> "finish the entire savannah"
22:11 < Modanung_> Hm ok
22:11 <@Rotonen> boss people around
22:11 <@Rotonen> after i make a post about it :P
22:11 < Modanung_> It's ok if I finish my house tiles first? :)
22:11 <@Rotonen> after i've contacted iru
22:12 <@Rotonen> you can do management for savannah and work under paj at the same time :)
22:12 <@Rotonen> to make the hierarchy more twisted :P
22:12 <@Rotonen> since i'm not an effective recruiter and manager
22:12 <@Rotonen> i'm just a bag of a lot of mixed ideas
22:12 <@Rotonen> of varying quality :)
22:12 < Modanung_> Rotonen: And you're ill
22:12 <@Rotonen> and busy with school
22:13 <@Rotonen> it's not that i'm worried about wether i'll pass the tests or not
22:13 < m[a]tt> gn8
22:13 < Modanung_> Rotonen: And about to join the army
22:13 < Modanung_> Rotonen: G'night Rotonen
22:13 <@Rotonen> but in order not to get thrown out of the researcher programme, i have to get the best possible grades :)
22:13 <@Rotonen> kinda creates a pressure there
22:14 <@Rotonen> so yer going to sleep too? :P
22:14 <@Rotonen> night
22:15 -!- m[a]tt [n=m[a]tt@p54975138.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
22:16 < Modanung_> Rotonen: In a short while, yea
22:17 -!- Mkael [i=Mkael@adsl-229-165.kymp.net] has quit ["Suhteessa kyllä."]
22:43 <@Rotonen> Pajarico: how about you being in charge of the city development?
22:44 <@Rotonen> iru for desert and Modanung_ for savannah
22:44 <@Rotonen> any objections
22:44 < Pajarico> everything for me?
22:44 <@Rotonen> when i've reached people, i'll put it on the forums and you'll just simply be in charge :P
22:44 <@Rotonen> and report to me on a weekly basis :)
22:44 < Pajarico> i can try it :)
22:47 < Pajarico> Rotonen, anything else?
22:47 <@Rotonen> not really untill i can contact iru
22:47 < Pajarico> ok
23:04 < Pajarico> I'm looking at some bulgarian churches
23:23 <@Rotonen> from 1600's or earlier?
23:25 < Pajarico> erm, i don't know
23:25 < Pajarico> http://www.caingram.info/Bulgaria/Bulgaria_church.jpg
23:26 < Pajarico> http://galen-frysinger.com/graphics/bulgaria.jpg
23:26 < Pajarico> http://www.peacegallery.org/images/europe/bulgaria/bulgaria12.jpg
23:27 < Pajarico> http://www.ku.edu/~osa/images/pictures/Bulgaria.jpg
23:27 < Pajarico> http://www.fantasyfacup.com/matthew/gallery/albums/istanbul-bulgaria/IMGP0044.jpg
23:27 < Pajarico> http://chehrzad.com/bulgaria/bulgaria-Thumbnails/4.jpg
23:27 < Pajarico> well ithink you get a idea :)